12U open to club level play

[Sheri Yaritz]

I have been involved with Fastpitch Softball for the past 14 years. I have been involved at the community level serving in many roles as a board member, and understand the importance of community, team comeraderie, and building a solid foundation of players for a strong program and eventually the high school teams.On the flipside I'm a parent and advocate for many players who I feel need to have an opportunity to share their passion and love for the game of softball to become better.

Here are a few points that I would like you to think about:
1) Development of a player comes from the begining of the learning process which in majority of sports players start a younger age levels. i.e hockey some kids start skating at 4 years old.
Not in all cases but some there are athletes that should have the opportunity and desire to play more and be in an enviroment where they can learn more and become better athletes, while playing with players who are also well rounded athletes who know the game well.

2) I look at club and elite level sports as a building block for athletes who have the will to become better with commitment and drive to take there game to the next level. Here is an example that I like to share regarding learning to become better. I compare a reading program that has a reader that wants to become an excelerated reader and has the ability to do so. If this reader is put into an enviroment with readers who are at the basic level the opportunity to become a top performing excelerated reader is minimal and it could holds them back. With some community programs this happens with a percentage of Softball players. They only have the to play for their community which only has community level coaching ( no offense to anyone because their are some good ones out there),players that have a non commmitment to the team because Suzie has a dance recital and Josie"s parents want to go to the cabin during a softball tournament weekend,less tournament opportunities, some teams are formed in April and then the teams are sent out to the field with no preparation or training of the fundementals to start playing games they are not prepared for, community politics, Etc. I'm sure you get what I'm saying. The bottom line is the kids that want and need to have a more competitive team to play with should have that opportunity so they can become better players at a younger age. If you allow this to happen there will be better fastpitch softball teams and even more stronger players at a younger age level. The saying that your team is as good as your weakest player comes to mind as I think about this situation and hope that many of you out there can understand the importance to make things like this happen. I'm sure there will be some flip sides to allowing this to happen but what change doesn"t have bumps in the road.  Thanks for listening and please share your thoughts.

[Steve Rechtzigel]

While I agree that many times an "open" team can offer a player better skills training, the fact is that only about half of the "open" programs really do so. 

The current system has enough freedom that ANY individual player can leave an association and play with a better association.  Any team is allowed up to 3 out of area players, so that is not really an impediment to leaving an association you are not happy with.

IMHO, playing too aggressive a schedule at a young age can lead to burn out and tends to be counter productive.

While not strictly against open 10 or 12U teams, without careful and purposeful planning, it will lead to a complete brakedown of the smaller community programs and financially force most "fence" players out of the sport.  If done correctly, it can offer some great benefits.  Unfortunately, our history shows that we tend to go through a long period of chaos without a clear direction.

[Chris Howells]

Steve,

I think the frustration people have is that in general the best teachers of the game we have are coaching 14-18 year olds and "fixing" things that could have been taught to 11 or 12 year olds.

Your spot on that half the open teams are just recruited talent with little or no effort being made to player improvement.  In their defense, those kids by coming together at least become competitive enough to play at a higher level, see better pitching, pitch against better hitters etc... which does provide some benefit.

IMO their are individuals scattered around who's kids played 3 years of 10U, 1 yr of community 12U and just are looking for something different than playing on a team where half the team has little or no playing experience and the coaching, skill development and competitive level is going to be determined by the LCD.  A community program could recognize that and let those individuals play up an age within their association, but IME that leads to such bitter contention among adults (Why is she playing up? Why isn't my kid playing up?  Why are you bumping my kid from an older team to make room for a 12 year old? etc..) that 99% of communities end up with hard and fast rules that prevent placing kids where they belong, in order to put them where the majority won't complain.

For all purposes 12U is open right now.  This year an open 12U team could have played in a local tournament every weekend, played USSSA State, and attended any national other than ASA.  Their is no open 12u League, but you would need more than one 12u Open team to start a league.  The main thing that prevented this in the past was ASA Sanctioneing of 99% of the weekend tournaments.  This last summer I think only about half were ASA Sanctioned.

[Chris Howells]

FYI,

The process for getting the rule changed is pretty clear.  Come to an ASA JOFP meeting, make a proposal, ask for a vote and see if you can get it passed.  A million names on a petition won't change the rule.  This is well intentioned and a good discussion (maybe sway some votes) but there isn't a magic number you could reach that would change the rule.

You might be suprised, but the club teams probably represent the majority of the votes in attendance at these meeting now and it is that voting block that continues to keep 12U Closed.  Communities usually vote to keep it closed as well, but if club teams were in agreement on opening 12U I think it would go through. 

[Jim Reetz]

I have a story and a question.

When my oldest daughter first was involved in what we call traveling softball (she was 10U) was the first time we started to have issues with 16U being open.  The 16U team in Woodbury at the time was going to be a very good team.  Well the club teams started and the team broke up.  I am not sure why because if they had stayed together they were one of the top 4 teams in the state.  But our director was upset.  I said at the time, being naive and new, eventually won't just the teams be the same with just the talent being mixed up.  Meaning instead of having good Woodbury girls on a Woodbury team the good team would be a mix of different good players from different communities.  For the most part I think I was pretty close.  Currently the girls at 16U are the better girls and the elite league if for want of a better name what would have been "A" in Suburban and Tier I in Tricounty.  There might be some exceptions because you can't always put 12 good players together in a community.  But as prevalent as club team have become, is it really that different?

How does that relate to this question?  Frankly all it means that the lower in ages we go it just mixes the kids up.  Some say coaching is better.  I think we are finding sometimes that is the case, sometimes it isn't.  Which is the same for some communities.

I want to ask why a parent would want an 11 or 12 year old daughter to concentrate on one sport year around?  Even if the child wants to, as a parent don't you want some variety in that child's life.

If you are looking for a college scholarship, or to play softball in college, you can save alot of money by just sending an email or calling a college coach and asking them to come watch your daughter.  You don't have to pay to travel all over the county.  They will come and watch just ask them or have your high school coach ask them.

I am not saying 12U open ball is a bad thing, I just don't know if it is necessary.  It probably is just a way for someone to make more money.

[Michael Linehan]

This issue is an issue because of where you live and when. I received a private response once to a posting on another board about the MMFL Elite League. The explanation was that girls in a smaller town who want to compete at the "A" level needed club availability because there wasn't enough kids in their area to field a competitive "A" team. Something to that effect. So, club ball started so the girls who want to compete at that high level and not have to sit and suffer on theit communities "C" level team that was no fault of their own.

The scenario is this. Let's say you have a 12U program but only have about 17 girls try out for it. You keep the top 13 (13 is about all you can carry and still get decent playing time for everyone). You end up with about 4 girls who really are "A" players, 4 girls who are really "C" players, and 5 players who are really "B" players.

Let's say your "A" player is a pitcher.

Not a good situation for her. If you play MMFL "B" you're killing all the teams you face. If you play "A" you have to hope nobody can hit off of you or the 4 girls who can field at an "A" level are where they hit the ball.

The "C" players really suffer. You play the "B" teams and your "A" pitcher pitches and you stand out in the outfield picking dandelions cause they never hit the ball. Meanwhile you come up to bat and get your little hit to the pitcher and get out and the (4) "A" girls are celebrating knocking the ball to the fence.

Out of this situation comes the parents with the "A" players who don't have enough kids to play with looking for an alternative.

[Paul Roberts]

If you are looking for a college scholarship, or to play softball in college, you can save alot of money by just sending an email or calling a college coach and asking them to come watch your daughter.  You don't have to pay to travel all over the county.  They will come and watch just ask them or have your high school coach ask them.

Respectfully, I don't believe "just sending and email" or "asking them to come watch" is realistic.

If it's expensive and time-consuming for you to travel out of town for exposure tournaments, how the heck could you expect college coaches to do that instead of you?

I don't believe you can just ask and see many (if any) college coaches show up. And if you expand your horizons 40 miles or so, I'll bet that number would certainly be zero.

It does make a difference what kind of team she's playing for as well as against. Most college questionnaires ask about the competition the player has faced in her career.

I just think it's way, way, way more difficult than merely sending an email or making a phone call, at least for most players with a goal of college ball, and especially for scholarship players. Coaches with scholarships get hundreds of inquiries every year. They're not going to take days off work and spring for airfare and a hotel every time a player says "come watch me." Any player who would get college attention only from an email is a star who is already on their radar.

[Bill Giddens]

I am not saying 12U open ball is a bad thing, I just don't know if it is necessary.  It probably is just a way for someone to make more money.

Who?

[Jim Reetz]

If you are looking for a college scholarship, or to play softball in college, you can save alot of money by just sending an email or calling a college coach and asking them to come watch your daughter.  You don't have to pay to travel all over the county.  They will come and watch just ask them or have your high school coach ask them.

Respectfully, I don't believe "just sending and email" or "asking them to come watch" is realistic.

If it's expensive and time-consuming for you to travel out of town for exposure tournaments, how the heck could you expect college coaches to do that instead of you?

I don't believe you can just ask and see many (if any) college coaches show up. And if you expand your horizons 40 miles or so, I'll bet that number would certainly be zero.

And, once you've given directions to the coach for the field out behind the barn by the water tower, it does make a difference what kind of team she's playing for as well as against. Most college questionnaires ask about the competition the player has faced in her career.

I just think it's way, way, way more difficult than merely sending an email or making a phone call, at least for most players with a goal of college ball, and especially for scholarship players. Coaches with scholarships get hundreds of inquiries every year. They're not going to run out every time a player says "come watch me." Any player who would get college attention only from an email is a star who is already on their radar.

Paul, I wasn't clear.  I wasn't talking about coaches from all over the country.  Let's be honest, how many of our daughters were on a pretty good basis with Bernstein at the U of M before she was let go.  I sent my daughter to two or three clinics, she knew my daughter by name.  I think I could have made a call.  Also a dad on our high school team works at one of the colleges in town and knows the softball coach pretty well.  The coach has a fairly good reputation and is successful and that coach is the person who gave the advice of calling and asking them to come and watch.  I just assume if the coach is giving the advice he will come out and watch.

If you want a scholarship well more power to you.  My daughter and most of our daughters will get more scholarship money using their heads than their bats and gloves.

[Michael Linehan]

I am not saying 12U open ball is a bad thing, I just don't know if it is necessary.  It probably is just a way for someone to make more money.

Who?

LOL

There's huge money in girls softball. Didn't you know that? 

[Jim Reetz]

I am not saying 12U open ball is a bad thing, I just don't know if it is necessary.  It probably is just a way for someone to make more money.

Who?

Let's see.  If you go to club/open ball at 12U that usually means training most of the year or you think you run the risk of getting left behind.  So you are paying a coach or an instructor.  It costs more to play "elite" ball.  Club teams usually charge more cause you are playing in more "prestigious" tournaments.  I don't mean to make it sound like a bad thing, but volunteers are more prevalent in community associations than they are in club/open ball.  Do you pay for what you get, yes.  So someone is making more money.

[Jim Reetz]

I am not saying 12U open ball is a bad thing, I just don't know if it is necessary.  It probably is just a way for someone to make more money.

Who?

LOL

There's huge money in girls softball. Didn't you know that? 

I would say there is large money in youth sports.  Why are there so many groups?  Just in Minnesota along we have MSF, MYAS, Gopher league, MMFL, MFL (some are baseball and basketball).  Nationally we have ASA, USSSA, AFA, NAFA, PONY, NSA, Triple Crown Sports and probably others I can't think of right now.  They aren't around just because.... I know some or all have an adult component to them.

Why do you think there is tension between MMFL and MSF.  The leaders don't like each other, but it also has to do the a dollar.  Are they getting rich, no, but it isn't strictly because there is bad blood.

[Tim Johnson]

Jim
 I wish it was that easy with college coaches.College coaches can only
attend a number of set events during the year.   Louisville Slugger Independence Day Tournament in Boulder, Colorado had over 400  college coaches checkin at the event this year and only the top club teams are allow to play in the event.Mn Irish 2-1 victory over the defending ASA 18 Gold National Champion California Sorcerers had over 40 college coaches in attended and at the Independence  16u 32 teams events had double the coaches at most games. Playing for the right club do help with college
coaches. Do you think a parent or a top club coach have a better chance to get
a college coach to the game. You right ,12u is nothing to do with college coaches
it about playing with player at the same level .

[Paul Roberts]

Paul, I wasn't clear.  I wasn't talking about coaches from all over the country.  Let's be honest, how many of our daughters were on a pretty good basis with Bernstein at the U of M before she was let go.  I sent my daughter to two or three clinics, she knew my daughter by name.  I think I could have made a call.  Also a dad on our high school team works at one of the colleges in town and knows the softball coach pretty well.  The coach has a fairly good reputation and is successful and that coach is the person who gave the advice of calling and asking them to come and watch.  I just assume if the coach is giving the advice he will come out and watch.

If you want a scholarship well more power to you.  My daughter and most of our daughters will get more scholarship money using their heads than their bats and gloves.

Gotcha. Oops. I misread "county" as "country."

[Charlene Phillips]

volunteers are more prevalent in community associations than they are in club/open ball.  Do you pay for what you get, yes.  So someone is making more money.

Well unless you know something I don't, I believe most all of the club programs are "non-profits" for the exception of 1 or 2.  The MN SnoCatz are a 501C3 Non-profit and ALL of our coaches, board members, etc do not make a dime and are all volunteer.

[Jim Reetz]

Well unless you know something I don't, I believe most all of the club programs are "non-profits" for the exception of 1 or 2.  The MN SnoCatz are a 501C3 Non-profit and ALL of our coaches, board members, etc do not make a dime and are all volunteer.

Charlene,

If that is the way you run your non-profit that is great.  But a 501(C)3 doesn't mean people can't get paid. For example, I believe Health Partners is a non-profit. 

[Vince Muehe]

I'm not sure 12U needs to go to the club level, but I wouldn't object if it did.

I don't believe the coaches on club teams are making a lot of money.  They do seem to charge more, but the smart consumer will ask, "What am I getting for the dollar I spend?".  If the club team is providing more instruction in the off season, better tournaments, better / more uniforms, better coaching (some have dedicated hitting coaches, pitching coaches, etc), you'll pay more, but you'll get more in return.  It's up to the athlete and her family to determine the cost/benefit ratio that they are comfortable with.

There is a difference between club and community that few people talk about:  Team Dynamics.

In the community teams, all the athletes go to the same schools, know each others' friends, parents know each other, they've played other sports together, etc.  There is a history.  While that history can sometimes be good, it also creates the little sub-groups on a team.  All of a sudden three athletes don't like one other athlete because she went out with the 2nd baseman's brother -- or some such teenage drama.  Parents are actually worse, carrying a lot of baggage about what someone did at 10U and now their daughter is on the 16U team, but there is still some festering animosity.

Club teams tend to pull from several communities.  The history the athletes have is softball.  That's it.  The parents are generally coming together with similar objectives for their daughters and they don't have that negative history either.  Yes, it can grow within a club team, but it's more difficult.  The athletes don't carry the school drama with them to the softball games.  They don't have to worry about the the first baseman bad-mouthing them at school because they dropped a "can of corn" fly ball in left-field which according to the first baseman, "lost the game".

I seldom hear of a girl that regrets going to a club based team.  There are parents that sometimes have regrets, because they believe their darling daughter should have more playing time, be higher in the batting order, etc., because she always had more or was higher in the order in community ball.  That's just going to happen.

It's great that kids of like talent can play together.  It can happen at the community level, it may be easier in club to accomplish that.  I still believe the social implications make club ball a more enjoyable experience for the older athletes.  For some 12U's, it could be a benefit, but I'm not sure the drama is in "high gear" yet at that age.

[Michael Linehan]

Vince,

If there is more drama at 14's, 16's, and 18's than I've already seen at 10's and 12's I pray to heaven that my daughter is good enough to play club ball.

[Bob O'Neil]

How many Minnesota girls from the class of 2010 will be playing for a division 1 college under a full ride scholarship for next season?

[Michael Linehan]

How many Minnesota girls from the class of 2010 will be playing for a division 1 college under a full ride scholarship for next season?

Good question.

At Jennie Finch camp last winter when the college girls were talking to everyone they mentioned that only 4 out of every 100 girls there would get to play in college.

I'd be curious myself how many Minnesota girls are actually going to play in college in addition to the scholly number.

[Sam Dillon]

How many Minnesota girls from the class of 2010 will be playing for a division 1 college under a full ride scholarship for next season?

Probably just one. A certain pitcher from Eagan. Maybe not though. Who knows. Full rides are few and far between.

If there is more drama at 14's, 16's, and 18's than I've already seen at 10's and 12's I pray to heaven that my daughter is good enough to play club all.

My mother called this payback time.

[Bob O'Neil]

"Probably just one. A certain pitcher from Eagan. Maybe not though. Who knows. Full rides are few and far between. "

IMHO Every Minnesota 8U parent should get a letter saying this "Your daughter will never receive any compensation for playing softball, there will be no monetary return for any money or time that you put into her life as a softball player. Everything from this point forward is an investment only in enjoyment, health, and fellowship."

Don't get me wrong over the last few years I have become a bigger proponent of club/elite/open softball but I still think 12U is to early to start. I would love to see more Clubs doing winter gyms, clinics, camps at younger ages but I think it is important to have the "pyramid base" to be as wide as possible. Even if that means there are teams that have skill level diversity, those teams provide 13 players with a place to play. Pull the 12U pitchers out of small associations and you will push more kids to slow pitch. We need more community club partnerships and not the more divisive environment open 12s would bring. 

Community teams still hold the keys to infrastructure, fields, volunteers, organization, and fund raising that most clubs can only dream of. If we could somehow mesh the community associations with the 14, 16, 18 club teams we could have both exist and actually make Minnesota softball stronger. Talk of open 12s pushes that backwards and will cause more associations to be fearful and resentful of open ball, one step forward and three steps back.

[Vic Phillips]

I have to agree with Bob.  I was a big advocate of opening 14U, but I am not sure it is the right thing to do for 12U for reasons stated above.  We, the MN Snocatz,  have been holding clinics for younger players, creating dome opportunities for 12U players, doing individual sessions with interested players, etc. 

It does appear that we are seeing a trend towards community based open teams.  Which I think is the best of both worlds.  An example being the Northern Xtreme.  If I understand correctly, they fall under the Northwest Diamonds association (formerly Elk River Area).  It allows them to focus the team on those that do want to play at a higher level that are within the association but backfill with more than 3 out of area players if needed to fill the roster.  This seems to work very well.  If you look around at the Open teams at 14U and 16U it seems to be trend.

That being said, if it did open, as organization we would support it and look to build a team.

[Roger Hylen]

IMHO Every Minnesota 8U parent should get a letter saying this "Your daughter will never receive any compensation for playing softball, there will be no monetary return for any money or time that you put into her life as a softball player. Everything from this point forward is an investment only in enjoyment, health, and fellowship."

Great idea, but the parents its directed at would assume it's meant for everyone else.

[Rick Shea]

Normally I would agree that 12U should not be open but you also have another dynamic.Community boards are often ruled by the "old guard". This means one or two individuals who having been doing it for years often dominate the decison making of community boards.Many times their is no structure for decisions-no voting or elections. You get new parents at 10U and 12U who want to get involved but feel like they have no input on choices like team selection,fields,facilities and player development. in this instance the parents naturally look outside to clubs so their kids can have a better experience.Sometimes its motivated by playing time but often its disagreements over other softball policies.