ASA 16U State - Illegal Pitch Calls

[Phil Runge]

Not seeing it, I can not make an assessment to what extent the pitcher was "dragging her feet" outside this line that she drew in the dirt but two things should be clear. One, all rule books dictate that in order for a pitch to be legal that pitcher MUST be within the 24" lane through the entire pitch. In a black and white rule book, dragging the foot outside this lane would make her pitch illegal.

IMO, for ASA anyway, the 24 inch rule applies to the foot that strides away, not the drag foot or any other part of the body. ASA Rule 6 Section 3,  I.  

Chris,

That may be the case. I do not have my rule book at work. In most cases that back foot drag going outside the 24" lane is trivial as long as the rest of the pitch is legal.

[Phil Runge]

Jeff,

I have made no indication that I was taking offense to what you said. I only said that your post indicates your disagreement with the umpires in these before mentioned games. As I also stated, I didn't see the game is question so we can only make assessments off what you tell us and what you tell us is 50% of the story from your view.

With that, I don't need to watch college games to understand what is and what is not a legal pitch. I know what they are. I started playing 10U boys FP back in 1980 and played FP or Modified until 10 years ago where I pitched for many years and I can say from experience that when I was fatigued, hurt or lazy I threw illegal pitches. Why did I do it? Because I was unable to throw the pitch I wanted to throw LEGALLY but I wanted that pitch thrown. You may agree or disagree, but it's the truth.

I have called numerous illegal's on many pitchers who one time during a game make a mistake suchas bringing the hands together twice.This could be the result of laziness, forgetfulnes, or fatigue...but it's still an illegal pitch. Most never repeat the event again during that contest. In other games, the pitcher needs to hop, replant or go outside the 24" lane to deliver a certain pitch. And what happens? All through the season umpires don't call it but as soon as they get an umpire who does, that umpire hears an earful of "Nobody else has called that!"

One of the best umpires in the state, who happens to be my friend, put it this way once: If a pitcher has to do something that's not described in the book, to to be able to pitch a strike and get an out, they are illegal and they are in a sense, cheating. Maybe not on purpose but in the sense of sportmanship it is wrong and must not be allowed. No pitcher, at any level, should be allowed to pitch outside the norms and as described in the governing body's rule book.

[Jeff Maier]

I agree when not doing it the correct way it is cheating and illegal.  This however seemed like they were searching for something and even the last ump said she was clearly replanting back in but he was told the whole body needed to be in as you also stated.  We all make mistakes just wanted this stated so someone else does not pay the same price and everyone can leave it at the field where it belongs.


jeff

[Mark Oelfke]

NFHS 6.1.2.c

the pivot foot may remain in contact with or may push off and drag away from the pitching plate prior to the front foot touching the ground, as long as the pivot foot remains in contact with the ground and within the 24-inch length.

ASA 6.3.I

(Women's and all JO play) In the act of delivering the ball, the pitcher must take one step with the non-pivot foot simultaneous with the release of the ball.  The step must be forward and toward the batter within the 24-inch length of the pitcher's plate.  It is not a step if the the pitcher slides the pivot foot across the pitcher's plate toward teh batter, or if the pivot foot turns or slides in order to push off from the pitcher's plate, provided contact is maintained with the plate.  Raising the foot off the pitching plate and returning it to the plate creates a rocking motion and is an illegal act.

NCAA 10.4.1

In the act of delivering the pitch, the pitcher must move toward home plate by pushing off the pivot foot from the pitcher's plate, taking one step/stride forward toward home plate and landing on or within the lines of the pitcher's plate.

NAFA 9.4 - Step/Stride

In the act of delivering the ball, the pitcher must push off with the pivot/drag foot from the pitcher's plate and take one step/stride forward toward the batter, on or within the 24-inch length of the pitcher's plate.

So, what I'm reading is that the codes agree with the exception of the NFHS which requires the pivot foot to remain within the 24-inch length of the pitcher's plate.  The other three codes only require the stride foot to remain on or within the 24-inch length of the pitcher's plate.

Additionally, just because an umpire didn't call a pitch illegal doesn't necessarily mean it was legal and conversely, just because an umpire called a pitch illegal doesn't mean it was.  It is like a strike call - you are at the mercy of the umpire and what they 'perceive' the act to be, legal or illegal.  And if the umpire doesn't understand the rule or the differences between the codes, you are going to have issues.  The true measure of the pitcher is how she adjusts to what the umpire is allowing her to do.

Last weekend I was in Glen Ellyn, IL working a tournament and BOTH pitchers completely buried the pitcher's plate every half inning.  I could not see if either of them were in contact with the plate.  One coach decided to 'inform' me that the opposing pitcher was not in contact with the plate on the back side.  I informed him that I could only call what I could see and since ASA doesn't have a penalty for covering the pitcher's plate I could not see if she was in contact or not.  When she didn't completely cover the plate, I could see she was in contact.

[Donna Hable]

Unfortunately, it seems that the pitcher in question was not the only one that didn't understand what the umpire was calling or even how to correct the problem.  I don't think the opposing coaches or anyone else was looking for something to call her on, it was pretty obvious from the start.  I was at the tier 3 tournament and saw the pitcher in more than one game and the umpire calls.  She was stepping out of the 24 in lane with her lead foot on almost every pitch, she would drag her back foot and sometimes stayed within the lane sometimes not.  She probably could have corrected the lane violation if she'd moved over a little more towards the middle on the pitching plate.  She also sometimes had a hop but that was more difficult to see because frankly I'd never seen someone who came that far out of the lane before and was watching her lead foot and where it landed.    

The people I heard questioning the calls were concerned with the NAFA rules because it doesn't state that both feet need to stay within the lane which I assume is what they thought the umpire was calling.  It just says the lead foot, or one stride forward, which would have still made most of her pitches illegal, she didn't land outside the lane on all of her pitches, but she did on quite a lot of them.  The other problem was she wasn't just a little outside the lane she was so far over and to one side that it was obvious to anyone watching from behind the plate that she wasn't within the lane with her lead foot. The other main complaint I heard was that "no one else called her all year, so why start now".  I think that frustrated everyone as much as the calls themselves.  To start calling her at the end of the season does seem a little ridiculous when if she'd been pitching like that all year, she should have been called from the start, then she could have worked to correct it.  

She's a good pitcher and it's more frustrating to a pitcher than anyone else when you all of a sudden start getting called for something illegal.  I'd actually thank the umpire for pointing it out now, while she still can correct any problems.  Instead of having her continue to pitch that way and pay for it later when the bad habits are developed and harder to fix.  

 From what I understand from listening to coaches, a pitcher pitching outside the lane puts a different angle on the ball going towards that batter and is far more of a problem for a batter than a pitcher that crow hops or leaps.  What do you think?  

[Jeff Maier]

Hmmm so the line she drew and the spot that was easily seen after pitching for a whole inning didn't show she was staying in???  It's easy to conflict her feet up as she's pitching but she trained for the whole offseason to hit the line to be able to throw the screw ball.  Once again you only have to catch the line.  I don't want to start an internet war.  I helped my daughter train and looked at the said call from all angles and she caught the imaginary line(remember there was no line there) as she was trained to do.  She does push it but any tiny piece and she's legal.
I figured this would start something and should have just swallowed my pride and let it go.  Just disheartening how people are claiming this or that when the spots proved she was staying in but blue was warned by the director to call it or be pulled.  That was said for all to hear eventhough he agreed it was legal.
I'll let it go just hope this helps a future girl that throws hard and her coaches can help her so she can pitch.


jeff

[Phil Runge]

Jeff,

What do you mean by "so the line she drew"?

[Jeff Maier]

She took her toe and drug a line from the edge of the rubber toward home plate to help the ump and prove she could hit it everytime.  It was something that was worked on extensively so she wasn't worried.

I really don't want to argue.  Everyone has an opinion and I respect that.  I applaud the effort of the umps and appreciate their time.  It may seem I was throwing them under the bus and I apologize if it came out that way.  Was just clarifying a rule to help future players.


jeff

[Bob Mochinski]

From what I understand from listening to coaches, a pitcher pitching outside the lane puts a different angle on the ball going towards that batter and is far more of a problem for a batter than a pitcher that crow hops or leaps.  What do you think?  

While not a pitching expert, I've worked with quite a few pitchers over the years. It's clear to me the advantage gained stepping outside the pitching lane with the plant foot regarding any type of curve or screwball pitch. But I can't for the life of me see any advantage by having the pivot foot move outside the lane. In fact, as I think it through, it seems that most curve type of pitches would be adversely affected by that type of movement of the back foot. At least were it to move outside the lane on the same side as the plant foot.
Help me out here pitching experts. What am I missing?

[Cliff Whitson]

I told all the umpires in the 12 -18U NAFA tournaments this past weekend to call the illegal pitch.
Why are the umpires who have called the illegal pitch being criticized, all they where doing was following the rule book.
Saying it has not been called all year is a bad excuse, why are allowing your pitcher to be illegal and then put the blame on the umpire who went by the book.
Just because it has not been callled does'nt mean it's not right.
Umpires need to call it all year and coaches need to teach pitching the proper way
The pitchers drag foot that DRAGS out of the lane has NO effect on the pitch.
Umpires who look for that need to look at the intent of the rule not how bad it's worded (of course NAFA in this rule has great wording)

[Phil Runge]

She took her toe and drug a line from the edge of the rubber toward home plate to help the ump and prove she could hit it everytime.  It was something that was worked on extensively so she wasn't worried.

I really don't want to argue.  Everyone has an opinion and I respect that.  I applaud the effort of the umps and appreciate their time.  It may seem I was throwing them under the bus and I apologize if it came out that way.  Was just clarifying a rule to help future players.


jeff

The only organization that uses an actual line to mark the 24" pitching lane is the NCAA. ASA, NAFA, NFHS and USSSA do not have those lines as part of the legal field mark up. The 24" lane is an imaginary line that represents the extension of the outside end of the pitching rubber forward towards the plate. A line drawn in the dirt by a pitcher or coach is not a legal or recognized marking. The lines I have seen drawn are always been crooked and generally started on the outside length of the rubber, thus the inside of the foot drag that made the etch in the dirt touches the legally described 24” lane and anything else is outside that lane.
I would recommend to any coach or player that they never draw any line into the dirt to “help the umpire” because when you do you are saying to that umpire “You do not know the rules and you don’t know what you are doing. Let us help you.”

Most umpires do not want or need assistance.

[Jeff Maier]

Thanks for the advice.  It's a total learning process for me as I only played basketball as a kid but have always followed baseball(peeled popple as a kid so baseball wasn't an option).


Jeff