ASA 16U State - Illegal Pitch Calls

[Vince Muehe]

Towards the end of the 16U ASA Tournament several teams were awarded an umpire with an eagle-eye for illegal pitches.

While there was a fair amount of boisterous complaining from the fans, I just want to say "Thanks!"

We've asked that illegal pitches get called.  We finally have an umpire out there that is willing to call them and people want to complain!  Nobody thinks they or their daughter may be illegal.  The umpire took the heat with the professionalism I'd expect from a seasoned umpire.

It's now the job of the coaches to examine their pitchers and see if they can spot the problems and get them corrected.  

It's not good to say, "She's never been called on it before!".   She's been called on it now and it's up to the athlete and coach to determine if they want to work on correcting the motion or taking their chances on another day.  Personally, I hope more umpires are willing to call leaping and lane violation problems out more often.  It's good for the sport.  I hope it happens at a much younger age too.


Thanks again!

Vince

[Tim Husted]

ASA State in Wisconsin 18U

Umpiring was hit and miss.  I had an amazing umpire for 3 games who had a great strike zone and was easy to work with for both coaches and her partners.  She clearly works college games although she confirmed and really did a nice job throughout.

We had an umpire who showed up with his fly down and was a complete mess.  He was calling a strike zone which includes balls that bounced just after home plate (not drop balls) and although he sucked both ways; we were not as good as throwing these totally unhitable pitches compared to others. 

But we did have and see one umpire who was as technical an umpire as I have seen and all 3 times I saw him he was the field umpire.  I know his name but won't "out" him but don't believe he works college games as I have not seen him in any box scores in WI in the past few years. 

So he called 2 different illegal pitches in the time I watched him:

In a game I watched, he called an illegal pitch for the pitcher going to their mouth and not properly rubbing that off before touching the ball.  I know this is a big deal in baseball but consideirng that any pitcher worth their salt licks their fingers but wipes off their palm anyhow, seems like a dumb rule.  The pitcher had no clue she had done this, there was no intent or impact that I saw.  That said, technically he saw it and called it.

In 2 games I watched and 1 where we played, he called mutliple illegal pitches on the same kids for losing contact with the rubber backward (not quite stepping back but more just slipping back).  He called it 3 times in a row against our opponent's pitcher.  At no point did I or my team ask for him to look for anything and as a matter of fact when the reaction was totally mismanaged, I actually sent a clear message through the 3B on an easy way for the pitcher to fix her issue.  The 3B thanked me for the help. 

So Mr. Technical Umpire called the illegal pitch but then choose not to follow any additional protocols.  Here were a few things that were acceptable...

Once he called the 2nd illegal pitch, there was a lot of questions and the 1B did a nice job of going to the mound to explain what was called and why.  The umpire did not offer any insight except to the 1B which seems odd as most umpires go to the mound and explain the call.  Overall, minor.

Once he called the 3rd illegal pitch, 2 coaches came to the mound to discuss with the umpire what the issue was and we had a period of 3-4 mins that included some drawing the dirt and explanations (all very calm). The umpire even indicated that a suggestion of how the pitcher could pitch legally.  And once the pitcher had her strategy to pitch legally worked out by the umpire and both coaches that joined her on the mound; she threw a "practice pitch" to the catcher at home plate. 

As I said, I also wanted to help this kid pitch legally, the game was not in question and it was a matter of less than 2 inches that she was slipping off the back of the mound so I knew the advantage was minimal.

But it amazes me how many times umpires say they "call the book" yet we only use certain rules in the book. 

How many protocol mistakes did you see in my explanation of the scenario?

TJH

[Chris Howells]

I agree Vince,  Ours was called about 8 times over 6 games, but no arguement from me.  Once was double dipping the ball in the glove, the others were replants (rocker motion resulting in replant 2" in front of rubber).  I didn't mind the calls, and several went against other teams we played as well including 3 or 4 24" Lane violations which i think are a real competitive advantage and need to be called to keep the game fair.

[Don Evans]

Vince,

Thank you for opening this thread. All too often we want to hammer the umps for doing their duty! We hire them to work the games by the rules set fourth by the governing body. We would however appreciate that the rules be applied equally. That being said I would hope that it could start earlier at the younger ages so everyone involved including the parents and coaches of the pitchers would learn proper technique and how to spot it. It is the umpires duty to call the game according to the rules if we pesonally agree with the rule or not. It is up to the rules committees to remove or adapt the rules.

I think "Eagle Eye" is a little strong unless that was an attempt at humor, referencing our friends from the Audobon perched atop the light pole. 

Chris,

I agree totally jumping out the 24" lane gives the pitcher an advantage especially when throwing the screw ball. The ball travels from out side of the pitching rubber towards the batter giving the illusion that the batter would be hit and then just crosses the plate. They started chalking lines at the college level to give umpires a point of reference to make the call. I wonder how long it will take for this to trickle down to the younger ages.  The 43 foot pitching distance did not take long!

[Raquel Bushman]

Thank you all for supporting us (umpires) for doing nothing more than enforcing the rules.  It certainly makes our jobs easier when we are all working together for the advancement of the game we all love.  It was a fun weekend!

[Rachel Palmer]

Once an illegal pitch is called it is not the umpires job to coach them out of it.  We are not pitching coaches.  It looks real bad for an umpire to give demonstrations.  If the coach wants an explanation they should ask.  Most times they know what happened and so does the pitcher. 

[Vince Muehe]

Rachel,

I think the ump I'm referring to went above and beyond.  He didn't coach, but he clearly stated the infraction.  He could have just stated it was an illegal pitch and forced the question.  He stated it was an illegal pitch and the reason for the call (at least the first time it was called).

He also allowed for a conference and for the pitcher to do some dry practice (ball not thrown) to help her get her motion corrected.

Vince

[Paul Roberts]

I agree the ideal would be for umpires to call consistently. But they don't. If you get hit-and-miss enforcement, it takes on an arbitrary tone. Add the fact that you can get three knowledgeable people watching a pitcher and get three different answers whether it's illegal, you have a mess on your hands.

Umpires need to get on the same page with regard to illegal pitches. Otherwise you're putting pitchers at an advantage (or disadvantage) depending on which umpire they have.

It's generally accepted that NFL refs could call offensive holding on every play if they followed the letter of the rule. Instead they look for infractions that interfere with a defender.

I have a daughter who pitched for 12 years in community ball and college. I have another daughter who's been pitching for eight years. That's probably thousands of games. My oldest daughter was called once for an illegal pitch. My next daughter has been tagged with illegal pitching in two games four years apart.

Yes, it was the same umpire that called my oldest daughter and my younger one in all the games. In fact, in the many games I've seen this umpire over many years, he has called illegal pitches on both teams in every game he's been involved with.

If you go to a tournament and see young pitchers in tears and coaches from both teams pulling out what little hair they have left, you can bet this ump is behind the plate.

I'm all for calling the rules, but only if there's some level of consistency. At this time that doesn't seem to be the case.

[Benjamin Thompson]

Yes, it was the same umpire that called my oldest daughter and my younger one in all the games. In fact, in the many games I've seen this umpire over many years, he has called illegal pitches on both teams in every game he's been involved with.

Funny how this thread turned on a dime from a thanks/compliment to a pick-fest. You know, it's always baffled me that a quantity of individual people as great as the number of softball umpires working games, can even see the game so similarly as to call them with the consistency that exists! Lots of credit has to go out to the rules & mechanics clinicians, as well as the mentors who may not ever stand in front of a crowd to make their impact. I will always be able to recite my "lineage", from asking Darwin Stadtlander how to get opportunities in softball, to being introduced to Steve Durant, to phasing baseball out of my schedule entirely, and etc. etc. to where I am today.

I honestly believe that the 'climate' of (in)consistency as just described does not exist. I will admit that a "trouble spot" for our consistency as an entire group is the inherent paradox of our career progress: Experienced/polished/comfortable umpires get assigned to the higher age levels, where less enforcement is needed, while Inexperienced/rough/uncomfortable ones tend to work the lower age levels where the enforcement is needed... for players' AND umpires' long-term interests. I am confident that the umpire clinicians here are aware of that, and are working toward a more perfect solution at all times. I would also guess that even among the seasoned, polished group of umpires, many would admit a time when they were 'afraid' or uncomfortable with a potential aftermath of calling an illegal pitch... and thus didn't. Human nature.

In my 17th season of umpiring in the JO programs, it's a very far-reaching benefit of the doubt to concede that an umpire exists who has called a pitch illegal on every team he has seen on the field, in a 12-plus year career. And it makes the rest of the point suspect of a very isolated experience cloaked in a very blanket opinion on an almost un-handle-able number of people.

[Paul Roberts]

I honestly believe that the 'climate' of (in)consistency as just described does not exist.

And it makes the rest of the point suspect of a very isolated experience cloaked in a very blanket opinion on an almost un-handle-able number of people.

Unlike many young pitchers who suddenly get called for an illegal pitch, I have often been tagged often for un-correct comments and apparent challenge to the status quo. I’m not sure what you mean when you term my comments “suspect,” but I don’t believe it’s accurate to describe my opinion as “very isolated.”

Let’s consider what Vince had to say.

Towards the end of the 16U ASA Tournament several teams were awarded an umpire with an eagle-eye for illegal pitches.

We finally have an umpire out there that is willing to call them and people want to complain!

“Finally.”

It's not good to say, "She's never been called on it before!"...Personally, I hope more umpires are willing to call leaping and lane violation problems out more often.

Vince

FYI, I'm not one of the folks issuing vocal complaints.

I don’t believe anyone can make a legitimate contention that illegal pitch calls have been anything but inconsistent among umpires. I’m a rules guy too, and was disappointed early on when I didn’t see pitching violations addressed. My opinion changed over the years when I saw illegal pitches were rarely called, and when they were, it appeared the calls had more to do with the umpire than the seriousness of the violation.

I would say that illegal pitch calling is what’s “very isolated,” not the opinion that umpires have not been consistent on the issue.

Don’t take my comments to be bashing umpires. I’ve umpired before, and it’s too difficult for me to want to do it again. I have tremendous respect for umpires. I’d bet most umpires would agree there hasn’t been consistent enforcement of pitching rules.

[Don Evans]

At the MMFL Elite state tournament I heard several umpires call Illegal pitches. I was watching the 16 U level. From what I could see the coaches did not pull their hair out, they used it for coachable moments. To this I say thanks.

[Dan Honoroff]

Great topic Vince.

Pitchers have to train more than any other position to have success.  The parent, team coach, or pitching coach should be responsible for teaching a pitcher to be legal.  You would think it should be done at a very early age. 

I think it's more difficult for an umpire behind the plate to see a crow hop but it should be clear when there's a lane violation.  I've seen 2 'off the chart' lane crossing pitchers this year at 16's and it wasn't called.  It's hard to see a lane violation from the dugout.

I see players being asked to remove jewelry, bright colored clothing, and tuck their shirts in.  I see base runners being called out for leaving early.  I see hitters being called out for not being in the batters box.  I see bats being checked before tournaments.

Which of these has more impact on the outcome of a game than a repeated illegal pitch?

[Mark Oelfke]

Personally, I think the biggest problem with calling illegal pitches is twofold - first, the umpire is telling everyone that the coach isn't doing their job.  Either the pitching coach that is being paid or the head coach.  Isn't it possible that the pitcher just has a bad habit that happens to be illegal?  Why does the coach have to have a hissy fit when we call an illegal pitch?  Most of the time, not always, it is with no one on base so if it is a non-NAFA game we aren't advancing the runner anyway.  In a NAFA game, we never advance runners on illegal pitches.  IT'S JUST A BALL!  No different than if she threw a pitch out of the strike zone.  Frankly, if I were a coach (thank God I'm not), I would have a much bigger problem with the irratic strike zone rather than the few illegal pitches that happen to get called.

Second is umpire training.  Most umpires are taught rather quickly how to call balls/strikes, safe/out, and fair/foul.  In most games, these calls are about 99% of the judgements an umpire has to make.  I've been umpiring for 23 years and have attended numerous local, state, and national clinics and have yet to be instructed on how to call an illegal pitch.  What to do after making the call.  And, most importantly, how to diffuse the situation after making the call.  So, if you have a very green umpire, or you have a 'pleaser' wearing blue, you will never see an illegal pitch get called because either they don't know how to handle the situation or they don't want to have to deal with it.

How is a pitcher cheating (either intentionally or accidentally) any different than an obstruction, interference, leaving early, or stepping on the plate?  It is a violation of the rules and should be called without passion or discretion.  Call the violation - impose the penalty - and move on.  If the pitcher doesn't know what she did wrong, tell the coach and have the coach tell her.  Get it fixed and play ball.

[Vince Muehe]

Mark,

You're right about saying the coach isn't doing their job.  It was my job and I need to be more cognizant of the problem.  Woke-up the pitcher.  Woke-up the coach too!

We have things to work on.

Vince

[Jeff Maier]

Well I guess I'm the minority then.
Was extremely disappointed on the illegal pitch calls in the 16U tier 3 state tournament.  It seemed the umps didn't quite understand the rules of a pitch.  They continuously called illegal pitches when not knowing what the actual problem was and seemed actually confused when asked for an explanation.  I totally understand their job is very stressful and appreciate the effort and time they put into it.  Just really feel it took teams out of the tourney with taking the best pitcher out of the game on very bad calls.


jeff

[Mark Oelfke]

Well I guess I'm the minority then.
Was extremely disappointed on the illegal pitch calls in the 16U tier 3 state tournament.  It seemed the umps didn't quite understand the rules of a pitch.  They continuously called illegal pitches when not knowing what the actual problem was and seemed actually confused when asked for an explanation.  I totally understand their job is very stressful and appreciate the effort and time they put into it.  Just really feel it took teams out of the tourney with taking the best pitcher out of the game on very bad calls.


jeff

What did they call the pitcher for and why was it a bad call?

[Vince Muehe]

At ASA 16U A, the two that I saw called were for stepping out of the 24" lane and for leaping.  I have photos of two of the pitchers and believe the calls were good. 

Vince

[Jeff Maier]

First they said the right foot can't drag sideways and come out of the box(which is legal!), then they said crow hop(which was proven she wasn't) and then they said she was landing out of the box with her left foot which after the pitch you could see the hole(she was making) was right on the line which is legal.  The pitcher even drug a line with her foot on the edge of the plate toward the ump to help him out and he still called it whenever just because it looked like her body was twisting out but in fact her left foot landed in.

She's only 14 and can throw a screw ball in the 40's already and they seem to not believe she should be able to do that.  The first game she was one pitch away from a perfect game(had one walk) and they seemed to absolutely want to find anything to keep her from running the table.  Not saying she could have but that doesn't matter.  This girl works year round as do many but seemed to be punished for being better then the other girls.
Was disappointed they would call illegal pitch with no proof or understanding of the rule.  Then when we explained what the rule was they moved to something else until it was a "judgement call".  If there was a line there and she missed it call it.  No line and appeared she was hitting the line everytime with the mark in the sand means good pitch.
Personally feel some coaches take advantage of vague rules and screw with the umps or directors for an advantage...


Jeff

[Jeff Maier]

To add a little more we went to tier 1 and 2 tourneys and those pitchers had the same form and either were right on the line or out of it by 4-6 inches with no call.  One girl was crow hopping really bad but the field was deteriating(sp) so they may have agreed to something instead of fixing the circle. 

Maybe she needs to get on an A team so the rules are better understood?  Grabbing at straws now lol.


jeff

[Jeff Maier]

And these were B tiers sorry about that. 

[Phil Runge]

Jeff,

In reading your post I would like to ask some clariifying questions and make some comments. First, are you using the term "box" to describe the 24" pitching lane because the only box on a softball diamond is the batters box. I am going to assume that is what you mean. Also, how was it proven that she was not crow hopping?

I will have to say that your comment that the umpires "... seemed to absolutely want to find anything to keep her from running the table" is probably furthest from the truth. Even the best umpires in the world do not keep track as to whether a pitcher is pitching a perfect game or not and if we do, we don't care one way or another if she gets it or not. We are concentrating on the game and if these umpires were as bad as your assessment, they were just concentrating on surviving.

Not seeing it, I can not make an assessment to what extent the pitcher was "dragging her feet" outside this line that she drew in the dirt but two things should be clear. One, all rule books dictate that in order for a pitch to be legal that pitcher MUST be within the 24" lane through the entire pitch. In a black and white rule book, dragging the foot outside this lane would make her pitch illegal.

Personally, I feel some resentment in your post. You are not happy with the calls the umpires made and you disagreee with them. You have this right.

[Phil Runge]

The illegal pitch will always be a rule that is open to judgement, argument and evaluation. Some people will say that coaches want it called if it's against the other team but not against their pitcher; I have seen this but I also have been in situations where the coach confirms your call with a comment like, "Yeah, we have been trying to work on that."

Nobody in their right mind teaches a pitcher to be illegal. Illegal pitches come from the result of laziness, fatigue, or a pitcher not able to perform due to injury. What can happen from these results is bad habits that are soon a part of a pitchers style and delivery. This affects all levels of every sport: that why major league ball players have batting coaches.

Throughout a pitchers career she will be exposed to a variety of umpires. These umpires will have various levels of experience and ability. This will also be true at a tournament as the degree of experience and ability will vary greatly. I have worked tournaments this summer that had second year umpires working along side veterans of ASA Nationals. What happens at these tournaments is that teams, coaches and pitchers are exposed to various levels of umpiring in each game they play.


In one game, a pitcher may obviously be illegal but not called because the umpire or umpires may be less experienced or less sure of their knowlege of the game. In a situation like that only the obvious things may be called. In the next game, that same pitcher may get called 6 times for illegal pitches. This unfortunately is part of the game and part of life. We can't download knowledge and ability into the head of a new umpire.

[Jeff Maier]

This is why umps do not understand the rule.  Your drag leg can and does go outside the Pitching Line with 99% of pitchers that throw hard because they pitch like a bowler if you will.  But the plant foot(left if your a right pitcher) plants back in.  Please watch some college games so you understand before you take complaints and offense to what I say.  Never does the rule book say whole body has to stay in.  If it was true almost all pitchers would be illegal.
And to the crow hopping the ump watched 5 pitches and checked the dirt inbetween every inning to show she wasn't hopping.  Once again the coaches were just digging for anything.(anyway there's no possible way to see a crow hop from the plate with the pitching rubber behind that's why he checked dirt)

And to your comment that illegal pitches come form fatigue, laziness or injury is totally off base.  You need to spend sometime with teaching someone to pitch to understand that they have to push to the very limit to be the best while being legal.  In football they try to time the hut counts to get a tiny advantage.  I could go on and on with all sports but I'm sure you understand.

I'm just pointing out the rules and how this totally took this team out of the tourney because of lack of knowledge.  I do not envy or will ever be an ump.  It's hard and someone is always unhappy but this is the rules section and felt it was appropriate here.


Jeff

[Chris Howells]

Not seeing it, I can not make an assessment to what extent the pitcher was "dragging her feet" outside this line that she drew in the dirt but two things should be clear. One, all rule books dictate that in order for a pitch to be legal that pitcher MUST be within the 24" lane through the entire pitch. In a black and white rule book, dragging the foot outside this lane would make her pitch illegal.

IMO, for ASA anyway, the 24 inch rule applies to the foot that strides away, not the drag foot or any other part of the body. ASA Rule 6 Section 3,  I.  

[Jeff Maier]

In the very next game on the same field the next pitcher drug her leg out just the same and no call was made.  And at all the games I watched at tier 1 and 2 every single pitcher drug their back leg out of the pitching line while planting in.  You only have to catch the chalk line with any part of your plant foot(they had a special on espn last year) so if the rule hasn't changed??
If it's a rule I'll eat crow.  I have no problem admitting I'm wrong and would gladly change her pitching if it's warranted.  Just not happy and wanted clarification of the rules and state how this changed the outcome and completely wrecked her chance to shine or win the game....
To everyone else it's just 1 game but to her it's her chance to prove herself and have fun.  Both were taken away...

Jeff